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    Thread: Why do European cars use Bolts?

    1. Member 79dubman's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 12:47 AM #51
      Quote, originally posted by BlackGLI »
      I think its because German cars have hubcentric wheels. That is, the hub supports the weight of the car, while the bolts simply keep the wheels located laterally. Studs, work in bending and tension. Bolts work only in tension.

      exactly. as quoted from google
      "The other element that affects directly whether a wheel can be bolted onto a car is hubcentricity. Long ago, in the deep mists of time, wheels were located by the taper of the lug nuts or bolts. This could lead to all sorts of problems, but they can be summarized by saying centering was liable to be less than perfect, and the sheer stress on wheel bolts or studs could be enormous. I am not aware of any passenger car wheels now made that are not hubcentric. Hubcentric wheels have a hole at their center that fits closely over a round feature on the hub, serving to center the wheel on the axis of the spindle, as well as bear the vertical weight of the vehicle. The wheel bolts or studs then serve simply to hold the wheel onto the hub, and are loaded only in tension, where they are strong. If the studs were required to absorb vertical forces, they would be loaded in single shear, the weakest arrangement for any fastener."
      thought this might help some of you out
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      Quote Originally Posted by jpr View Post
      LOL how can i say this without you taking it the wrong way? a picture of a retard with a plastic lid used as a fake steering wheel driving a pretend car 28 years ago in the USSR ??? PUT IT IN THE CAR LOUNGE !

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      02-12-2010 12:50 AM #52
      There are ****-tons of hubcentric applications which use lug nuts & studs. Just having lug bolts does not equal hubcentricity nor guarantee hubcentricity.

    3. 02-12-2010 01:02 AM #53
      my 66 beetle has bolts, but not hub-centric rims. i always thought these were the more difficult rims to hold in place.
      well, mine originally had bolts. today it has screw in studs, so i can use mag style lug nuts with the shank for my EMPI 5 spokes.
      my friend who works mostly on Japanese cars, bitches constantly about European cars when he has to work on them, and he was just asking me the other day why so many German cars STILL use the lug-bolts, and i still have no answer to him. but we both agreed they are annoying.
      i have seen the above tool, come in a few cars factory tool kit. definitely easier than the balancing act, and some models having to line up the brake rotor with the hub while turning the rim is a major PITA!

    4. Member 96vrJetta32's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 01:25 AM #54
      Quote, originally posted by winstonsmith84 »
      FWD used bolts.


      ever see a bmw?
      baller status

    5. 02-12-2010 01:31 AM #55
      Quote, originally posted by Black Smokin’ Diesel »
      I just hold the bottom of the wheel with my foot and thread the first bolt in if the car is on stands/floorjack. If the car is on a lift, grab a bolt then the wheel. Put wheel on hub, align holes and hold it with one hand then use the other to thread in the first bolt. The center bore of the wheel hangs on the hub's lip. I don't see why some of you are having such a hard time with this.
      I don't like the idea of dragging the wheel on the studs and damaging the threads when removing/installing it.

      X2. I have had cars with both, and I like bolts better (except when I had spacers so the wheel wouldn't sit on the lip, that was a huge PITA). I think sitting the wheel on the lip and rotating it to line up the holes is easier than picking up a 40lb wheel and tire and lining them up without anything supporting them.

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      02-12-2010 01:48 AM #56
      Quote, originally posted by Fritz27 »
      I remember getting a flat and cursing Franz von Lugbolt for making VWs have bolts. So freaking annoying and made putting on the spare about 55% more difficult than necessary. Way too much effing work to line it up on the hub and keep it balanced while trying to align the holes while being pissed because the tire was flat.

      Keep a short screw driver in the spare kit. Put the wheel on the hub, do a rough alignment and stick the screw driver in the top hole. Then proceed with the other bolts. You may still have to hold the tire with the screwdriver in but the alignment problem should be solved.

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      02-12-2010 02:01 AM #57
      This is actually a pretty good topic as I have wondered myself this over time. As an engineer (and disregarding engineering issues like strength/stress and all that good stuff) I dont see why they would use studs and nuts. Using studs and nuts means you have 2 parts instead of 1. That means twice the quality control and inventory management. It means an extra step in knurling the stud (or keeping a close fit) so that it can be press fitted into the stud and it also means one extra assembly step.
      If you use lug bolts you only have 1 component to worry about and the tapped hole on the hub does not mean much cuz it already needs to be drilled. So just one extra step to tap the hole. Maybe thread roll the threads for the bolts and thats it.
      It is true that it is harder to install the wheel with lug bolts than with studs. But who cares? Average Joe does not play installing and replacing his wheels like an enthusiast. So the average driver is really not affected that much. So wheel studs are not much of a winner in my book.

    8. 02-12-2010 02:31 AM #58
      Wheel bolts are much stronger than studs and also prevent rust buildup better and that is why I think they use them. The studs have to be made out of a softer metal because they are just pressed into the hub so when they get overly dirty or rusted the studs are very easy to cross thread or they can shear when applying too much torque when removing.
      Wheel bolts also stay cleaner longer because none of the threads are exposed to the elements unlike the nut/stud combo where the stud extends past the nut and can get rusty/dirty/damaged. I worked in a high volume tire shop for a few years and have had to replace dozens of studs and nuts there were damaged. The only twice had damaged bolts. One on an old rusty Mercedes and one on a Saturn. Both times I just ran a die over the bolt and the threads were good as new, no replacement necessary.
      I have found that bolts are actually FASTER to install than nuts. I only needed to barely get them threaded and then I could zip them on with the impact gun, I threaded nuts most of the way by hand because I was afraid of stripping the threads. I have also heard that bolts torque more accurately and hold their torque longer but I don't know how valid that is or why.

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      02-12-2010 02:36 AM #59
      The bolts may hold their torque longer because more threads engage the hub so there is more friction due to preload. The accuracy in torque may come from the bolts being stiffer than the studs as you mentioned.

    10. Member GiacGtiAgain's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 02:37 AM #60
      Quote, originally posted by Subwoofers »
      WHY TORX? WHY

      X MOTHEREFFING 2
      my transmission fluid drain plug is a t70 torx. went to FIVE stores the other day and not one carried it. finally ordered one on amazon. apparently quick lube places were mistaking the transmission drain plug for the oil drain plug and this was subaru's answer. jiffy lube ruins lives.

    11. Member VDubby18's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 02:37 AM #61
      I just set the wheel on the lip that is provided... and use my foot and lean it against the bottom of the tire.
      Wheel and tire do not move, and I have never had a problem putting a wheel back on... come on folks.

    12. Member EL DRIFTO's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 02:48 AM #62

    13. 02-12-2010 02:54 AM #63
      people are not realizing that most new cars lug nuts are capped so they cover the ends of the studs!

    14. 02-12-2010 03:37 AM #64
      hubcentric. put wheel on hub cap, it supports it and all you need to do is press it and then spin a bit and line a bolt hole. insert bolt, use as anchor.
      insert other bolts. tighten. profit.
      i dont get it.. takes a minute

    15. Senior Member NoDubJustYet's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 06:15 AM #65
      Is this for real?
      It's not hard at all.
      كافر
      Save the Nürburgring!

      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Gotta keep right on the 'Ring. German road rules apply.
      Quote Originally Posted by NoDubJustYet View Post
      I think you and I have mentioned this one a few times over the years.
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Might as well just make it our signatures at this point.

    16. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 06:28 AM #66
      Quote, originally posted by Black Smokin’ Diesel »
      I don't like the idea of dragging the wheel on the studs and damaging the threads when removing/installing it.

      This.
      And for my GTI, with free rotors and spacers.... Tommybar FTMFW.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI - 1996 GTI VR6 - YouTube Track Videos - flickr

    17. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 06:34 AM #67
      Quote, originally posted by babydubz »
      can i go to home depot and buy a bolt and cut off the head and use it as a wheel extender?

      Sure. If you can find large metric size bolts at your Home Depot.... that are precision cut and aren't covered with schmeg.
      Tommybar is machined so you can easily spin it in by hand. It also has a hole in the end, in the rare case that it gets stuck/etc, you can shove a screwdriver into it to spin it off.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI - 1996 GTI VR6 - YouTube Track Videos - flickr

    18. Member velocipedio's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 07:04 AM #68
      Quote, originally posted by laynehip1 »
      the bolts make me so ****ing mad.
      and everytime i go to change my rear tire, the whole assembly moves so then the bolt holes do not line up, then i have to take off the e-brake to move it back again and its a disaster.
      plus you cant get nice anodized lugs.

      Try opening your manual and reading about the OEM supplied tool for lining up the bolt holes.

    19. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 07:07 AM #69
      Quote, originally posted by velocipedio »
      Try opening your manual and reading about the OEM supplied tool for lining up the bolt holes.

      Not supplied in cars sold in the US.
      The space in the toolfoam is there... just the tool isn't.
      We have to buy them aftermarket... like 6 or 7 prior posts have said.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI - 1996 GTI VR6 - YouTube Track Videos - flickr

    20. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 07:19 AM #70
      It's fun when your locating screw on your brake rotor is broken 9like what always happens when doing a rotor job).

    21. Member velocipedio's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 07:37 AM #71
      Quote, originally posted by Surf Green »
      Not supplied in cars sold in the US.
      The space in the toolfoam is there... just the tool isn't.
      We have to buy them aftermarket... like 6 or 7 prior posts have said.

      I am American and brought my B6 A4 Avant to Germany. My car was purchased in the U.S. and came with the tool. It's also mentioned in NA-edition owner's manual for both the B6 and B7. Not sure what you are talking about.


      Modified by velocipedio at 4:39 AM 2-12-2010

    22. Member TurboWraith's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 07:51 AM #72
      Quote, originally posted by 480 »
      Because they work???
      The exposed threads of a stud can rust, or be open to damage in other ways, where a bolt has all of its thread buried in the rotor or drum, takes a lot more abuse.

      Also, an engineer friend of mine has remarked in the past that lug bolts are stronger, although I'm not sure how that works. I do know that of the hundreds of lug bolts I've removed in my life, I've never stripped, broken, or otherwise damaged a single one. I have snapped a few studs due to crossthreaded nuts or stripped threads.

      Ever heard of capped lugnuts? Accomplishes the same thing.
      The vertical load is not put on the lugbolts/studs. It is transfered to the hub from the wheel directly, on the chamfer found at the center of the hub. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

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      02-12-2010 09:11 AM #73
      Quote, originally posted by Surf Green »
      Not supplied in cars sold in the US.
      The space in the toolfoam is there... just the tool isn't.
      We have to buy them aftermarket... like 6 or 7 prior posts have said.

      Both of my mercedes have come with the tool...

    24. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      02-12-2010 09:19 AM #74
      Quote, originally posted by blue75vette »
      Both of my mercedes have come with the tool...

      None of my VWs did.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI - 1996 GTI VR6 - YouTube Track Videos - flickr

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      02-12-2010 09:28 AM #75
      Quote, originally posted by Surf Green »
      None of my VWs did.

      VWs do not come with the tool, Audis do.
      Though, the Audi tool isn't steel, it's black plastic, but looks identical to the one pictured in this thread (hole at the end for threading with the aid of the factory supplied screw driver).
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