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    Thread: MkIV intake manifold options - MkIII on MkIV, SRI, turbo, aluminum, plastic, etc.

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      04-17-2007 07:22 PM #1

      Background:
      # If you search in the archives you'll find several people interested in using the
      MkIII aluminum intake manifold on their MkIV 12v motor for turbo applications.
      Short-runner intakes also generate a lot of discussion. I hope this thread can be
      used to collect all information on MkIV 12v intakes for eventual inclusion in a FAQ.
      # The VR6 manifold is made of two parts. A lower section which bolts directly to the
      head and holds the fuel-injectors and fuel rail. The upper section is comprised of long
      intake runners tuned for torque peaks around 4000-5500RPM and a small air plenum,
      # The MkIII manifold parts are made out of metal while the MkIV manifold parts are
      made almost exclusively out of composite plastics.
      # The MkIV has significant design changes over the MkIII which impact the tuning
      aspects quite a bit. Camshaft profiles, intake manifold design, and compression ratio
      are the biggest changes. You can't mix and match parts designed for MkIII and
      expect them to perform just as well on MkIV. The engines are similar, but not the
      same.
      # MkIII is designed with equal effective length intake runners (from throttle body ->
      intake valve) This is accomplished by having unequal length runners inside the
      intake manifold itself. The rear cylinder bank is further away from the throttle body
      so this additional length is compensated inside the intake manifold itself.
      # MkIV is designed with unequal effective length intake runners (from throttle body
      -> intake valve) This is an entirely different setup than MkIII. Instead of
      compensating for the rear cylinder bank with runner length inside the manifold, the
      MkIV uses a unique camshaft profile. The rear cam is a mirror image of the front
      cam with respect to intake and exhaust valve duration/lift. This effectively
      compensates for the difference in runner length.

      Quick Q&A
      # Can you mix and match upper/lower manifold sections? The lower and upper
      portions of the manifold are not interchangeable between MkIII and MkIV. I.e. you
      can't bolt a MkIII upper section onto a MkIV lower section and vice versa. If you
      weld and re-drill holes, this may be possible, but it is far from plug'n'play.
      # OBD1? OBD1 MkIII manifolds are not compatible with the MkIV throttle body
      (need reference and picture proving this)
      # OBD2? OBD2 MkIII manifolds are compatible with the MkIV throttle body (need
      reference and picture proving this)
      # Can MkIV injectors be used in the MkIII lower manifold/fuel rail? This might be
      possible with modification, but its not plug and play. Different seat diameter perhaps?
      (need reference on this!)
      # What about the intake rod shifter solenoid when removing MkIV manifold? No
      problem. You won't throw an ECU code. Just plug up the vacuum line that leads to
      the black vacuum bubble or remove it entirely.

      Short Runner intake (SRI) mass-produced options
      # HPA/ebay
      # C2Motorsports
      # Schimmel

      http://www.hgp-turbo.de/images/vw/ansugrohr.jpg
      http://www.rennen.us/quickflow.jpg
      http://spturbo.com/images/inta...9.jpg


      Features
      # easy fitment
      # reasonable price
      # re-use of MkIV fuel-rail/injectors (C2 intake uses MkIII fuel rail/injectors as it is a modification of the OEM MkIII lower manifold)
      # throttle-body placement available on left or right side in cold area
      # durable material for turbo applications

      Faults:
      # Runner lengths are not harmonically tuned for a realistic RPM range - this sacrifices some power potential, in theory
      # plenum size may not be optimized for engine displacement - again in theory
      # some SRI's have fitment issues with the radiator fan support, especially on Corrado.


      Comments:
      These are large tuners and they know what they are doing. They are building engines with certain constraints. For intakes, packaging and pricing are generally the primary constraints. Performance comes third.


      SRI custom
      Features
      # can custom-tune runner lengths for RPM target and specific MkIV mirror image cam profiles
      # durable material for turbo applications

      Faults
      # price can be very high for good custom fab work or very low for poor custom work
      #

      MKIV OEM manifold
      Features
      # great low-end torque due to variable geometry intake shifter rod
      # composite plastic material provides heat insulation

      Faults
      # intake shifter rod bushings wear out causing rattling, seizing, and poor performance. In many cases aftermarket bushings can solve these issues.
      # composite plastic is prone to catastrophic failure in turbo application of 12PSI+ depending on age and heat cycling


      http://carad.ebayimg.com/i19/0...4.JPG
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/foru...5.jpg


      MkIII OEM manifold
      Features
      # durable aluminum material

      Faults
      # need to use MkIII fuel rail and MkIII injectors
      # built-in runner length compensation does not work well with MkIV cams


      MkIII OEM manifold custom application idea for MkIV fuel rail/injectors
      Specs:
      # cut out intake runner compensation
      # cut and re-weld upper intake neck section for more flow
      # re-weld throttle-body and vacuum connections to line up with MkIV locations
      # re-weld and tap mounting holes from upper intake->lower intake to match up to the MkIV lower manifold/fuel rails

      http://i13.tinypic.com/334he9y.jpg
      http://i2.tinypic.com/ou7axv.jpg


      Features:
      # re-use MkIV fuel-rail/injectors
      # no built-in runner compensation so works with MkIV cams
      # durable material for turbo applications

      Faults:
      # requires souring of OBD2 MkIII manifold
      # requires several hours of custom fabrication
      # leaves throttle-body over hot exhaust manifold
      # gaskets - how to seal metal to plastic?


      References:
      # Foffa's MkIV cam project: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3062575
      # Bildon's VR6 project : http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2616140
      # various posts from all the VR6 fanatics here.
      # NubVR's intake project: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3371914
      # MkIV manifold cutaway pics: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3603164
      # MkIV VR6 tech info with pics http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3600400
      # MkIV Passat VR5 cast intake manifold: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2837200
      # R32 factory aluminum intake: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3624313


      Some Exhaust manifold pics just for fun:
      http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/476/vr612su.jpg
      http://img141.imageshack.us/im...g.jpg
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_...2.jpg
      http://i4.tinypic.com/3ziygzk.jpg

      More intake pics:
      http://img98.imageshack.us/img...0.jpg
      http://img.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg
      http://img.photobucket.com/alb...5.jpg
      http://img.photobucket.com/alb...6.jpg
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/AES_VR6.jpg
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/forum/R32_Manifoldsm.jpg
      http://i6.tinypic.com/261yn9u.jpg
      http://i3.tinypic.com/261yo8i.jpg
      http://i14.tinypic.com/2qwmz4l.jpg
      http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/146.jpg
      http://render2.snapfish.com/re...0,442
      http://render2.snapfish.com/re...0,442
      http://render2.snapfish.com/re...0,442
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/schrick.jpg
      http://homepage.mac.com/scott....8.jpg
      http://sootrocket.vwenthusiast...S.jpg
      http://www.bildon.com/pub/VR6_proj/DR3.jpg



    2. 04-17-2007 08:54 PM #2
      What after market manifolds perform like the stock mk4 manifolds?Do they bolt right up with no modifications? I like the low end torque the stock one provides but hate the damn shifter rod rattle I upgraded bushings but that only lasted 15k, my plastic mani is shot

    3. Member VR6ix's Avatar
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      04-17-2007 11:01 PM #3
      Schrick VGI manifold for mkIII cars... but on a mkIV application you'd want mkIII cams, and have to deal with new throttle-body position and intake piping.

      Same with a VWMS VSR


      I don't know of any aftermarket manifolds with the variable geometry made for the mkIV VRs


      Good Topic

      · ·we're only gonna die for our own arrogance that's why we might as well take our time...
      · · /
      · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to Ø

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      04-18-2007 12:00 AM #4
      Dan, good post...very interesting points there. Are you lookin at switching your setup???? If so, whats your time frame? My reasons in asking, are next fall, im gonna park mine for a bit, and do my own IC/piping/SRI... Im a welder/fabricator by trade, so if all goes well with the SRI im gonna be looking for people that would be interested in one...anyways its a long ways away....just throwing that out there... thanks for posting that for people

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      04-18-2007 01:30 AM #5
      Thanks for the posts guys. I hope this is as much a discussion as FAQ material.

      It seems the MkIV 12v motor is left out of a lot of the glory in VW tuning. Folks seem to either go with complete MkIII setups or the 24v. Not too many options specifically designed for the MkIV. A lot of parts have been adapted from MkIII kits though which is a great start.


      nubVR,
      I hope to install a headgasket spacer and up the boost on my Stage-2 MkIV Kinetic kit at some point, but when I do so, I want to take advantage of Foffa's MkIV cams and a very well-designed intake manifold. So that is one goal with this thread: find the best setup for my car. But I knew other folks would be interested. I would definitely be interested in working with you on this.


      Modified by phatvw at 10:31 PM 4-17-2007


    6. Member vrisk's Avatar
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      04-18-2007 02:46 AM #6
      reserved for future additionsx2
      All mk4s smell a bit like crayons/candles. All mk3s smell like hot plastic and crayons. All mk2s smell like water damage, and all mk1s smell like mold and electrical fires.
      It's a VW thing.

    7. 04-18-2007 05:16 PM #7
      i noticed when i built my short runner with a larger volume plenum the car made more power and torque at a lower boost level. 18 psi made 400 whp and 411 tq. This was on my mk4. Some people at 18 psi arent making that torque.


    8. 04-18-2007 05:18 PM #8
      also the mk4 is limited to runner length due to the amount of space that is in between the head and the rad support/fans. Very tight, so i simply made the manifold the tallest it could be without hitting the hood and made it like a wedge shape rather than just a square box. With welding and materials cost around 500 bucks, not too bad.

    9. Member nubVR's Avatar
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      04-18-2007 07:20 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

      nubVR,
      I hope to install a headgasket spacer and up the boost on my Stage-2 MkIV Kinetic kit at some point, but when I do so, I want to take advantage of Foffa's MkIV cams and a very well-designed intake manifold. So that is one goal with this thread: find the best setup for my car. But I knew other folks would be interested. I would definitely be interested in working with you on this.


      Modified by phatvw at 10:31 PM 4-17-2007

      Awesome....I hear you with the cams...I have a few different ideas in mind, so i hope to make a couple different models, we can talk later on that, Im gonna start having my flanges made in the next couple months...so if you have any ideas you would like to share are see, send me a message, and maybe we can work some ideas together.


    10. Member VR SEX's Avatar
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      04-18-2007 07:42 PM #10
      HPA/Ebay/wagner, schimmel, and Custom are your best bets for easy fit in a Corrado
      -Andrew-
      Turbine Mechanic

    11. 04-19-2007 03:29 AM #11
      Quote, originally posted by procket2_8 »
      also the mk4 is limited to runner length due to the amount of space that is in between the head and the rad support/fans. Very tight, so i simply made the manifold the tallest it could be without hitting the hood and made it like a wedge shape rather than just a square box. With welding and materials cost around 500 bucks, not too bad.

      the trick is to use radius bends to create much longer runners.
      I added ~3inch in the pics i sent to the creator of this post a couple of weeks ago.

      He might be able to post a picture so that its easy to compare lenght.


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      04-19-2007 04:02 AM #12
      Quote, originally posted by foffa2002@home »

      the trick is to use radius bends to create much longer runners.
      I added ~3inch in the pics i sent to the creator of this post a couple of weeks ago.

      He might be able to post a picture so that its easy to compare lenght.

      Right, the idea is to have the runners curve up a little bit such that the throttle body ends up much closer to the valve cover and almost sits on top of the FPR/fuel injectors rather than in front. The trick is making sure the hood can still close

      If you switch to the MkIII valve cover with the oil filler and PCV on the passenger side, then maybe we'd have a little more room to work with for folks who need the TB on the drivers side.

      Here's a low-res pic of one of Foffa's VR5 intakes. Notice the curvature of the runners which make them a little longer than other SRI's




      Modified by phatvw at 1:28 AM 4-19-2007


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      04-19-2007 09:47 AM #13
      Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

      If you switch to the MkIII valve cover with the oil filler and PCV on the passenger side, then maybe we'd have a little more room to work with for folks who need the TB on the drivers side.

      mk3s are still on the drivers side for the oil fill but the pcv is on the pass side...though that would have nothing to do with the SRI as its in the back...


      Here's a low-res pic of one of Foffa's VR5 intakes. Notice the curvature of the runners which make them a little longer than other SRI's

      the plenum on that intake is SOOO small though...i dont understand how that can be better than a larger plenum..sure the runners arent that long with a larger plenum but id think with a plenum that small youd be choking it out?...



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      04-19-2007 01:47 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by mk2vrooom »
      [/QUOTE]mk3s are still on the drivers side for the oil fill but the pcv is on the pass side...though that would have nothing to do with the SRI as its in the back...

      Oh yeah, you're right. But I was thinking more along the lines of having the runners curve up towards the valvecover like the OEM MkIII intake then if the oil filler isn't in the way, put the plenum and throttle body right over the coil-pack area.


      So take Rob@Flipside's idea but put the TB on the other side, make the runners a couple inches longer and double the plenum size!





      Modified by phatvw at 11:02 AM 4-19-2007


    15. 04-19-2007 04:40 PM #15
      Hi

      My old plenum is 1.25xLitre = more the enough.
      Plenum size will not do as much inpact as runner lenght.

      runner lenght and area is the key because on full throttle its alot of air in the iintercooler pipe system that will affect /act like more plenum size if TB is big enough.

      Got some cool test at work.

      So anything above 1xengine size is enough


    16. 04-19-2007 09:50 PM #16
      If I can add a few things, Dan, to help those in the future.

      Under SRI:
      -C2 SRI requires MKIII fuel rail
      -Some SRI also has fitment issues with rad. fan

      Under MKIII Mani:
      -AFP's intake changeover valve solenoid doesn't throw CEL if removed


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      04-24-2007 08:44 PM #17
      Hey guys, who actually knows what the difference is between the MkIII and MkIV injectors? Why can't a MkIV injector fit in the MkIII lower manifold? I assume its because the MkIV injector diameter is a little smaller?

      Is it possible to fill in the MkIII hole and re-bore it to work with MkIV injectors?

      And I have heard that MkIV injectors can be "modified" to fit the MkIII. What is the modification???


    18. Member VR SEX's Avatar
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      04-25-2007 12:07 AM #18
      Quote, originally posted by phatvw »
      Hey guys, who actually knows what the difference is between the MkIII and MkIV injectors? Why can't a MkIV injector fit in the MkIII lower manifold? I assume its because the MkIV injector diameter is a little smaller?

      Is it possible to fill in the MkIII hole and re-bore it to work with MkIV injectors?

      And I have heard that MkIV injectors can be "modified" to fit the MkIII. What is the modification???

      I'm not sure if that should be done or not? I would try to keep like injectors with like manifolds, the depth or angle at which the injector sits can alter how the fuel is going mix... try and research if they sit identically... if an mk4 injector ends up sitting deeper or steeper it might end up spraying the wall of the port

      -Andrew-
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    19. 04-25-2007 12:21 AM #19
      mk4 injectors are shorter and fatter than mk3 injectors. The diameter of the injector is large, that is why when using saab injectors for turbo application(mk4) bigger o rings are needed. But now that USRT had fueling solutions there isnt an issue. I dont foresee the spray pattern being different, its still a 12v, although tthe manifolds are different so the spray can be tailored to the individual manifolds...although when i built my short runner, I used those saab injectors i had and just put the mk4 o rings on them and i made adaptors for the mk4 fuel rail..

      Good question


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      04-25-2007 02:05 PM #20
      OK What about keeping the plastic lower MkIV manifold/fuel injectors/fuel rail and just making a metal upper intake? Afterall, its the upper part that breaks under boost - the lower part appears to be quite beefy.

      The tricky part is getting an aluminum upper part to seal to a plastic lower part. But VW got a seal between the aluminum head and the plastic lower manifold, so it is possible.

      Maybe a custom gasket/o-rings?


    21. 04-27-2007 12:06 AM #21
      rtv always works, and combined with those o-rings/rubber gaskets it should seal fine as long as the aluminum that your mounting to the plastic is straight and true. You can use a mk3 lower and use the mk4 rail you just need to make metal brackets to hold it in right.

      That plastic lower with the aluminum upper is a neat idea, never thought of it


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      04-27-2007 12:48 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by procket2_8 »
      mk4 injectors are shorter and fatter than mk3 injectors. The diameter of the injector is large, that is why when using saab injectors for turbo application(mk4) bigger o rings are needed. But now that USRT had fueling solutions there isnt an issue. I dont foresee the spray pattern being different, its still a 12v, although tthe manifolds are different so the spray can be tailored to the individual manifolds...although when i built my short runner, I used those saab injectors i had and just put the mk4 o rings on them and i made adaptors for the mk4 fuel rail..

      Good question

      I got more info on this. Apparently you can modify a MkIII injector to fit the MkIV opening/fuel rail, but not the other way around. What Shawn@Kinetic an other MkIV kit vendors do is remove material (mill?) from the MkIII injector and replace the o-ring so that it seats in the MkIV opening. This is much more cost-effective than using an injector designed for the MkIV hole as those injectors are $100 each for some reason.

      It appears that 99% of folks on 12v MkIV >12PSI setups are using a MkIII injector/fuel rail combo with 42lb injectors or larger. Few are using the MkIV injectors.


      Modified by phatvw at 11:23 AM 4-27-2007


    23. Member Soupuh's Avatar
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      04-27-2007 02:16 PM #23
      i have a custom made short runner and i can't notice difference in low end, but it immediately pulled harder up top- no doubt.
      Hondas for DAYS...

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      04-27-2007 02:24 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by Soupuh »
      i have a custom made short runner and i can't notice difference in low end, but it immediately pulled harder up top- no doubt.

      And you're using Kinetic's "MkIV" 36lb injectors right? Can you post pics?


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      04-28-2007 11:48 PM #25
      these were taken the day of install, the 90 degree steel bend has since been replaced with one welded aluminum piece, painted black to match.

      I'm using my original 3bar fpr with a fuel rail from a corrado (25 bucks on ebay).. We weren't sure if the injctors would fit as it was, but they did (very close).





      Modified by Soupuh at 12:24 AM 4-29-2007

      Hondas for DAYS...

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      04-29-2007 01:04 AM #26
      Quote, originally posted by Soupuh »
      these were taken the day of install, the 90 degree steel bend has since been replaced with one welded aluminum piece, painted black to match.

      I'm using my original 3bar fpr with a fuel rail from a corrado (25 bucks on ebay).. We weren't sure if the injctors would fit as it was, but they did (very close).

      Thats a nice setup Soupah! Thanks for posting the pics. When you get a chance can you take some up-close pics of the fuel-rail/injector area?

      If you can get more info on how your fabricator/engine guy did the install that would be awesome. I'm curious how the modified injectors fit into the Corrado fuel rail and what the differences actually were.

      BTW I have a lead on a full MkIII ODB1 upper+lower manifold +fuel rail for $50 local pickup. Should I go for it just to experiment?



      Modified by phatvw at 10:05 PM 4-28-2007


    27. Member Soupuh's Avatar
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      04-29-2007 10:36 AM #27
      I'll get back to you on the pics- I don't have a digi cam.

      50 bucks is cheap! I paid 30 for the lower intake manifold i bought from a mk3 to make a sri, but then I ended up using this one instead. It's off of VRT 20 psi's car, made 485 whp at one point.

      Hondas for DAYS...

    28. 04-29-2007 11:15 AM #28
      Quote, originally posted by foffa2002@home »

      Plenum size will not do as much inpact as runner lenght.

      I read some interesting articles on plenum sizing. The effect was not what you might have expected (i.e. larger plenum does not necessarily make more power).

      I will have pics of my finished short runner soon


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      05-05-2007 10:40 PM #29
      The schimmel looks the best quality IMO

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      05-06-2007 03:21 AM #30
      Quote, originally posted by ThatGuy »
      The schimmel looks the best quality IMO

      Agreed. The workmanship and machining is top notch. But looks are only one thing... is it the best design?


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      05-07-2007 07:31 PM #31
      The 3.6L R36 Passat intake manifold appears to use runner compensation instead of cam compensation like the regular 3.6L engine:

      R36 VR6:

      Regular 3.6L VR6:

      Thought you guys would want to know. Foffa, you need to get your hands on an R36 motor and see what they're doing on the intake and cams. No pics of the exhaust, but maybe the R36 has tuned headers too?



      Modified by phatvw at 5:35 PM 5-7-2007


    32. 05-08-2007 02:47 AM #32
      Hi

      It got cam compensation but have a smaller adjustment to make it better.
      Ill guess its just fine tuned.


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      05-08-2007 03:19 AM #33
      Quote, originally posted by foffa2002@home »
      Hi

      It got cam compensation but have a smaller adjustment to make it better.
      Ill guess its just fine tuned.

      I think it also has the vario-cam (aka continuously variable valve timing) on both intake and exhaust, right? Kinda like BMW's double-vanos on the M3 engines?


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      05-31-2007 01:49 PM #34
      Hey guys, here is a beautiful 24v manifold that shows the curved intake runners that some of us keep talking about. My idea is to make something similar for the 12v:


    35. 06-01-2007 08:14 AM #35
      Silly Question-

      When using a pre-fab short runner manifold on a MKIV 12v, how do you move the wiring for the throttle body? Is the factory wiring long enough to reach the disired location?


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